drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  28

  A very good video series on why the Jehovah's Witnesses are so illicitly corrupt of an organization

  by Homerovah the Almighty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this video series on you-tube is one of the better ones explaining the decisive corruption of the organization.

  and how people are treated by the organization when they are just simply seeking the truth.. its bit long winded at times but the speakers get directly to the point and makes things quite clear.. the people commenting are all ex-jws of course but they were very close to the higher levels of the organization.. have a watch and listen and see what you think for yourself.......hta.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb46qprzhu0&feature=playlist&p=953316d83286ccaf&index=0.

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  drew sagan

  I enjoyed listening to some of the tapes that float around from the small "conventions" he organized. I never was converted to the fundamentalist christian views often expressed by him and those who he associated with. Some of it was rather condesending and became a real turn off for me. Some folks, like Robert Morey are almost just as bad as JWs.
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  23

  Governing body member comments about new anointed

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.jwbrothers.org/play_audio.php?audio=612.

  i listened to the talk of samuel herd, a governing body member.

  he says something like, many new anointed are real trouble-makers in the congregations.

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  drew sagan

  Neat!

  It's such an outdated theology that has no real possible way to be updated without major changes. So rather than change it becomes an ackward belief that makes no sense and is rarely talked about.
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  41

  Have any of you just handed the book COC to a jw friend or relative?

  by cawshun in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if so, how did it go over, good or bad?

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  drew sagan

  I gave it to a JW friend once. He kept it in his bookbag for about a week. Eventually he gave it back telling me he didn't like Ray Franz because he had wrote a book that was bigger than the Bible and that was something a person shouldn't be doing.
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  I knew that the sentence in my second to last post was too vague
  
  I was mainly thinking that there is somewhat of a difference between the changes Rutherford made to gain control over the anointed (e.g. take over of ecclesias) and the later developments which would take that control over the "rank and file" during the Knorr and Franz eras. So control definitely was part of the Jonadabs creation, but was somewhat different from the controlling practices of which the "other sheep" doctrine would eventually be a part of for non-anointed (the vast majority of post 40's JWs).
  
  An interesting thought/question on the articles Leolaia posted above:
  
  Currently it is taught by the WTS that the anointed "take the lead" despite the fact that many who claim to be of the anointed are scattered throughout the world and have no real voice within the organization. It seems to me after reading the articles above that this teaching actually had it's beginnings during a time when those who were anointed (Russells day through the 1920's) actually did hold privilege within the congregation over the Jonadabs (i.e. other sheep). Thus the idea of the anointed "taking the lead" actually happened during that time, although it was rather short lived. As time passed the authority and position of the anointed was diminished. The eventual growth of the "other sheep" would make administering special privilege to the anointed impractical and thus their status was in name only (unless you happened to be located in Brooklyn NY). Just hypothesizing here...
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  One thing that I think would be helpful (if it has not already been done before) is to compile the differant "classes" taught by the society (Russell and Rutherford) and put them on a time line to show when they were taught. There are just to many to keep track of!
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  greendawn,

  I think what you speak to is somewhat of a possiblility but not at all within the context of my question, namely "what was the motivation of Rutherford".

  Watchtower leaders who came after Rutherford without a doubt refined the theology in such a way so as to create a rulining class above the "other sheep". Inside Crisis of Conscience Ray Franz goes into quite a bit of detail about the "other sheep" doctrine as well as the myths the Watchtower circulated about it. He challeneged the idea that the anointed took the lead and discussed how non anointed people were writing magazines. Additionally he discussed how the anointed not located at Brooklyn New York basically had no power whatsoever in the process of "feeding" the other sheep. By reading his arguments its easy to see that the other sheep/jonadabs teaching eventually did morph into what you speak of (and that's why he argued about it heavily), but the original intent was more about covering over an unexpected problem in the theology and not necessarily about control.
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  Great informatinon Leolaia, I knew some of it but's it's been a while since I've cared to think about it

  On a side note, I once talked with a JW who seemed to know a great deal about the Watchtowers History (MTS Grad). Eventually we got onto 1914 and I went through all of the reasons as to why the chronology could not possibly be accurate. Eventually he broke down and stated that even if the chronology was wrong there were other things that pointed to the fact that JWs were "chosen" during the early 20th century.

  He pointed out that during the early 30's many people were coming into the orgnaization but they did not know exactly what their "hope" was. This persisted for a number of years until the "holy spirit" eventually had to intervene and cause a "miracle" to occur, namely the discovery of the "jonadabs" (aka other sheep). He stated that because Watchtower leaders were slow in figuring out what was acutally going on it was proof that prophecy was being fulfilled and nobody even knew it until the holy spirit began to work inside the organization and fix it! I actually think this was something he was taught at MTS.

  Of course an objective review of the situation is that Rutherford created the confusion himself becuase he did not expect his movement to grow. When it did began to grow he had to create theology to accomodate it.

  Great points everybody, thanks so much!

  I really would like to research this issue further, time to break out the "rainbow" collection and do some reading ;)
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  Wow, no comments yet. I thought you guys were better than that
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  26

  motivations for creating the "Jonadabs"

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know that shortly after rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the jews (as taught by russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people.

  but i'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.. what were some of the deeper motiviations rutherford had in creating this doctrine?

  i flipped through pentons book but he really doesn't get into it.

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  drew sagan

  I know that shortly after Rutherford dismissed the idea that the new covenant was only for the Jews (as taught by Russell) he eventually began to formulate his new doctrines of how he felt it did apply to people. But I'm a little lost as to why exactly he chose to create this doctrine.

  What were some of the deeper motiviations Rutherford had in creating this doctrine? I flipped through Pentons book but he really doesn't get into it. Aside from going back and actually reading through Rutherfords books (which I may do) I figured I would put this question on the board just in case somebody has already done the work
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  13

  The importance of Rutherford...

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was doing some thinking about watchtower eschatology and something interesting popped into my head.

  throughout the watchtowers revelation book we read of elaborate stories and interpreatations all putting the watchtowers history into the pages of the bible.

  some of these include:.

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• 

  drew sagan

  Great commenets everybody.

  Leolaia I just wanted to comment on a few specifics you pointed out:

  I suppose there was an inertia to this system and Franz did not see it as a matter of concern. Today, with 2014 approaching soon, the longe durée is becoming more and more conspicuous.

  I feel the same way. Neither Franz or Knorr ever put as much of themselves into the theology of the religion as Rutherford did. Franz especially was a man who elaborated and refined the ideas of Rutherford. That was always his foundation. Franz and Knorr actually did have the power to move past Rutherford, but they never really did. Instead they kept the teachings of Rutherford at the center. They where the "disciples" of Rutherford in every way, maintaining the traditions of their "master" throughout their entire lives.

  Up untill the past decade those who continued the traditions of Rutherford have continued to dominate the leadership of the faith. As time progresses however there are very few people inside the organization that where alive during the Rutherford years. They are quickly dying off and will be mostly gone within the next decade or so. Once they are gone we are left with the followers of the followers.

  One thing I feel that makes the Jehovah's Witness so confusing is that those who took the lead after Rutherford decided to systamatically keep and refine his philosophy without ever giving him proper credit. While other modern "restorationist" faiths show a great deal of respect for their founder (mormons, christian science, adventists) generations of Watchtower leaders have continued to downplay the importance of "individuals" and instead directed the credit towards the Watchtower corporation in general. This has created an "image" of Jehovah's Witnesses that is mostly fantasy, namely that the organization (and no single person) is the source of the majority of teachings.

  Understanding exactly who and what Jehovah's Witnesses really are and why the believe what they do becomes rather complex. Are them from Russell, Rutherford, Knorr & Franz, a mix of all of these? I firmly believe it's all Rutherford. The myth told by Watchtower leaders that the organization has been refined by God is just that, a myth. Rather Rutherford set up the religion and his loyal followers that continued to lead the watchtower refined his ideas. Because of this it's no surprise that in Watchtower theology Russell never fulfills any scripture and Rutherford fulfills dozens of them. Additinally, nobody fulfills scripture after Rutherford according to current truth.